Lithium ion batteries are simply not a good enough technology for cars

The simple fact is gas powered ice automobiles will always be cooler and more satisfying machines than ev’s full stop. Lithium ion batteries are good enough for small personal electronic devices but are just simply not up to the task of powering cars to a standard that is acceptable. Even the best evs are topping out at around 300 miles of range and that’s pretty much the maximum that can be done given the weight and space limitations whilst old Camrys and accords can go over 600 miles on a full tank. You add on to that the slow and tedious method of charging them, natural degradation of battery cells with time (in ten years evs lose almost half their range) poor performance in extreme cold and hot weather, safety concerns around battery explosion (rare yes but catastrophic when it occurs and as evs age it will become more likely especially in collisions) I think if graphite batteries come online it could finally bring the practical advantages to evs to a point where they could finally dominate and overtake gas cars but lithium ion cars were adopted on a lot of empty promises and the novelty factor and yes they’re certainly quick cars but just feel very soulless to drive performance wise. As that novelty factor begins to wear off we’re seeing people quickly return to their senses

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  1. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    HEVs and PHEVs are the best, they can be geared towards performance or economy and they out perform full ICE or electric in all use cases. Frick dumb politicians for submitting to BEV-only lobby because the Japanese have the head start on hybrids.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      >out perform full ICE or electric in all use cases
      Only long-distance travel a hybrid loses because it adds a lot of extra weight for zero use

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      Totally agree with them being best from a consumer POV, at least when they are brand new. A big reason automakers don't like them is they are actually more complex that ICE and BEV as you have two drive trains in one. Not only do you basically need separate engineering teams to design each system, you need integration teams to ensure they interface seamlessly, which requires more validation testing. It also makes end-of-life of the vehicle pretty expensive since there's just so much more shit going on. I'm honestly surprised they get sold as cheap as they are kek.
      >t. worked as an engineer at GM

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        Complexity does not help the consumer either because it introduces more parts that can break.

        https://i.imgur.com/oXOkSYR.jpg

        The simple fact is gas powered ice automobiles will always be cooler and more satisfying machines than ev’s full stop. Lithium ion batteries are good enough for small personal electronic devices but are just simply not up to the task of powering cars to a standard that is acceptable. Even the best evs are topping out at around 300 miles of range and that’s pretty much the maximum that can be done given the weight and space limitations whilst old Camrys and accords can go over 600 miles on a full tank. You add on to that the slow and tedious method of charging them, natural degradation of battery cells with time (in ten years evs lose almost half their range) poor performance in extreme cold and hot weather, safety concerns around battery explosion (rare yes but catastrophic when it occurs and as evs age it will become more likely especially in collisions) I think if graphite batteries come online it could finally bring the practical advantages to evs to a point where they could finally dominate and overtake gas cars but lithium ion cars were adopted on a lot of empty promises and the novelty factor and yes they’re certainly quick cars but just feel very soulless to drive performance wise. As that novelty factor begins to wear off we’re seeing people quickly return to their senses

        Most EV-s won't even be L ion battery packs

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          Totally agree with them being best from a consumer POV, at least when they are brand new. A big reason automakers don't like them is they are actually more complex that ICE and BEV as you have two drive trains in one. Not only do you basically need separate engineering teams to design each system, you need integration teams to ensure they interface seamlessly, which requires more validation testing. It also makes end-of-life of the vehicle pretty expensive since there's just so much more shit going on. I'm honestly surprised they get sold as cheap as they are kek.
          >t. worked as an engineer at GM

          I trust electric components to last a lot longer than GM's ICEs
          Many hybrids have 8-10 year warranty on their hybrid parts

          Hybrids pay off quicker depending on gas prices. In Saudi Arabia they make no sense. In most of Europe they make complete sense. In the US they'll take around 5-6 years to pay off at current gas prices.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >Yurocuck talking about American reliability
            Lmao
            @27458242

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      They're so good that WRC is ditching hybrids and going back to petrol-only in 2025.

      I tuned it to one rally this year and at least two cars just stopped moving after going through a water splash at a relatively low speed; It was pathetic, and neither the drivers on the scene or the mechanics could do anything about it because "it not work :(" is just what happens to complicated electronics when they fail.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      cope, EVs are EVs and EVChuds WON

  2. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    I hate EVs but your problem is range? That doesn’t affect 99% of people.

  3. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    My diesel S Class could go over 1000 miles on a single tank and I used that range a grand total of 0 times

    Reality is that what the rest of the world wants is EVs and they don't care about your feelings. Since most legacy manufacturers are content with selling pick up trucks to Americans, and Toyota wants to sell the same 15 year old cars, Chinks have become the world's largest car exporters
    You favorite manufacturers are turning into regional manufacturers for an increasingly backwards market, they're literally just handing Chinks the global market because they can't or won't compete

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      The world “wants them” because they believe EVs are better for the environment (which is only true in France because 70% nuclear).
      You’re right, EVs are just a giant win for China, the giant police state that dreams of killing Americans.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        People want them because they're simply easier to live with. 99% of people, especially globally, don't give a singular frick about the engine
        >the giant police state that dreams of killing Americans
        And American manufacturers are doing absolutely nothing about it to compete. I can see another bail out in their future since they seem hell bent on making expensive fuel guzzlers for people who can't afford them
        They can't survive in a free market

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          US companies will keep selling truggs to morons who like larping as rugged tradesmen, and crossovers to whomever they can manage to lure into a dealership.
          As long as the chicken tax remains in place, they'll always have their trugg revenue line.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Exactly, they'll be relegated as regional manufacturers and lose all global relevance

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          >They can't survive in a free market
          the irony when EVs are living off massive subsidies

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          how is filling up your gas tank in 4 minutes not easier to live with? all the normies i know run out of gas pretty frequently because they just forget. in an EV that's like a $300 mistake because you can't put them in neutral and you can't go get a jerry rig.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            How is plugging in your car in your garage not easier to live with?
            >all the normies i know run out of gas pretty frequently because they just forget
            Sounds like the people you know are clinically moronic

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            they work in tech and own businesses so yeah

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            I hope when you mean tech, you mean something other than webdevs, devops, and other bootcamp monkeys that build different flavors of CRUD applications. Also:
            >buy LLC
            >I suddenly have a 180+ IQ

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        If nothing else, China wants them because they want to reduce dependency on oil in case of war, they want their cities clear of smog (unlike India/Bangladesh). A decade or so ago, their cities were the worst, now with Chinese cities banning gas cars and only allowing electric, the noise, the smell, the pollution dropped has dropped like a rock.

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          greetings CCP shill Chang in Beijing
          claim: gas and turbo ICEs in automobiles built in the last 40 years, making up 99% of automobiles still used more than once a year, on paved roads, are a significant contributing factor for "smog"
          factcheck: entirely false!

          china allowing ancient low-efficiency 100% emissions-control-free non-turbo diesels to blow smoke 24/7 for 100 years and doing nothing about it has zero relevance to "modern" fleets in other countries, where automobile-related "emissions" haven't been a legitimate concern for decades

          next you'll move the goalposts to diesel-specific NOx or tire emissions or some other stupid bullshit you'd have to have an IQ of 80 to consider a meaningful problem in reality, or you'll just go full peak oil lunatic (conveniently ignoring that abiotic oil theory was pioneered in ... communist Soviet Russia... while biotic oil horseshit was cooked up by a capitalist israelite who worked for the western oil majors LMAO sneed)

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        China has tons of dense cities that used to suffer a lot from smog. Even dirty energy sources help with local air pollution.

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          IIRC that also happened because a lot of people (especially in 2nd and 3rd rank cities) used to cook and heat with coal briquettes.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        >which is only true in France because 70% nuclear
        A lot of regions are similar, and very few places are 100% coal today.

        In terms of emissions gasoline is around 333 grams of CO2 per kWh, natural gas is around 420 grams of CO2 per kWh, and coal is 1000 grams of CO2 per kWh. Where those values for natural gas and coal factor in the long tail pipe, while the gasoline figure does not.

        So if a gas car is averaging 25mpg aka .75 miles a kWh that is 450 grams of CO2 per mile.
        An EV running entirely on coal comes up under that as long as it manages 2.25 miles a kWh.
        Most EVs are significantly more efficient than that doing 4, or even 5 miles a kWh.

        Even the production argument is now tipping in favor of EVs as internal combustion cars keep getting heavier, and EVs are now often the same weight or lighter.

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          even with 100% coal, EVs are slightly better
          1) because loses in excavator+turbine+powerline+battery+motor
          are lower than in oil well+pipeline+refinery+tanker+combustion engine
          2) because your exhaust pipe is in middle of nowhere (and there's a massive flue gas scrubber) instead of right outside your door

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          You are deluded.
          EV's are heavier than the equivalent petrol/diesel car.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            This may have been the case 5 years ago, but not so much today. EVs were frequently heavier when they launched because they were on new platforms meant to conform to the latest or upcoming safety rules that their rivals on older platforms at the time didn't meet. Now many of those internal combustion engine rivals have had a refresh, they had to meet the same standards for impacts with heavier vehicles, and as a result they got heavier too.

            Just compare the BMW M2 and the base Tesla Model 3 which are both RWD entry-level luxury cars with some sporty pretensions that were just refreshed for 2024 and meet similar safety standards.
            The M2 weighs 3867lbs, and the Model 3 weighs 3862lbs. The M2 is one size category smaller, and 2 door. You would expect it to be significantly lighter, but it isn't.
            Even if you special order the M2 from BMW in the lightest weight possible configuration, its weight advantage over the Model 3 is less than 50lbs.

            This is also after Tesla started using the heavier, but more robust LFP cell chemistry on the base model. Go back a year or two and RWD Model 3s were a few hundred pounds lighter.
            The current top-end Model 3 is another 200lbs heavier, but a portion of that is the front motor for AWD, and AWD systems for internal combustion also put on a few hundred more pounds.

            It is now rare to find internal combustion cars in the same class or category that are a lot lighter weight, and when they are, if you look, they are still using older platforms that haven't been refreshed.
            It isn't the powertrain, its the "safety" rules. Nothing is going to change the weight increases other than regulations that bring the weight of all vehicles on the road back down to something reasonable.
            There really needs to be a fleet average weight rule like the fleet average efficiency rules, and this time no special exemptions for vehicles classified as trucks.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >comparing the base Model 3 to a fricking M2
            Non-M2 is only 3500lbs btw

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Before the recent refresh and switch to LFP, the Model 3 RWD was also only 3500lbs. We're still talking about cars in roughly the same weight class. People here still frequently claim all EVs are over 5000lbs.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Most of them are, at least EVs with real interiors

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        As opposed to Saudi Arabia and Russia which are similarly oppressive police states where radicals or the government themselves have gone beyond dreaming about killing Americans and our Allies.

        No way around the fact batteries and other energy storage is the next strategic technology that needs to be scaled up within the US and NATO as a whole.
        It will make the US and our allies less dependent on hostile foreign countries for energy, and we have to be able to counter China to not cede that market to them.

        EVs are just a side-benefit of that, like how internal combustion engines for the masses were a side-benefit of the Government subsidies put in place for the fossil fuel industry to build it out to supply the war effort during the first world war.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      Yes range is a mostly irrelevant stat until you need to make a long drive and it suddenly isn't.I cannot imagine trying to go across the U.S. in a Tesla and being forced to stop dozens of times, desperately searching for a place to charge when in the middle of nowhere, waiting in line for 20 min to get a spot on the supercharger and then waiting another 20 to get a full charge. Those annoyances add up over time and really start to become orders of magnitude more inconvenient with a car that was meant to make things more convenient. and it's made all the worse by the fact that the issue compounds and worsens with time. Yes range is mostly irrelevant until it isnt and then it becomes absolutely debilitating to not have it.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        I've driven across the US and Canada multiple times, and I was always stopping far more often just to eat, piss, stretch my legs, etc. than to fill up on fuel
        morons who barely drive seem to think road trips = cannonball runs

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          >takes 30 min to piss

          you should check your prostate

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Thanks for proving that you're a moron who thinks a road trip is supposed to be a cannonball run
            >hurr durr me drive lot
            sneed

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        You made up everything there, you have never owned a Tesla

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          Most of these morons don't even have cars. This board has a serious bus rider pandemic

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        I drive a Tesla Model 3 RWD 1400 miles in 2 days. Hardly affected travel time. What's really crazy is it made the trip way better by being forced to stop every 200 miles. Before I would drive 4-6 hours non stop, but it turns out stopping every 2-3 hours for 15 minute breaks makes the trip way more enjoyable.

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          Yes range is a mostly irrelevant stat until you need to make a long drive and it suddenly isn't.I cannot imagine trying to go across the U.S. in a Tesla and being forced to stop dozens of times, desperately searching for a place to charge when in the middle of nowhere, waiting in line for 20 min to get a spot on the supercharger and then waiting another 20 to get a full charge. Those annoyances add up over time and really start to become orders of magnitude more inconvenient with a car that was meant to make things more convenient. and it's made all the worse by the fact that the issue compounds and worsens with time. Yes range is mostly irrelevant until it isnt and then it becomes absolutely debilitating to not have it.

          Every 200 miles, add in extra 15 minute stop.

          If you're going 500 miles, thats just 30 minute stop in between. 500 mile / 60 mph = 8 hours 20 mins of non stop drive. Surely, you can do 2 x 15 minutes stops for the 8 hour drive right? In a gas car, you stop maybe once or twice to gas + pee break + food. Might as well do the same with EV and there would be no difference.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Yeah, stopping every 3 hours is way better than every 5. I can't believe I used to do that just to save half an hour or an hour on the trip.

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          >1400 miles in 2 days
          >[EVs hardly affect] travel time

          I drove 2150 miles in 34 hours, and that was only because I was playing my fuel tank level too safely and spent 45 minutes sleeping in a parking lot.

          What any of this proves to me, is most human beings don't qualify for my level of human being. You're like rhesus macaques compared to a chimpanzee. you're a salmon and I'm a dolphin.
          You are lesser, you have lesser self control, lesser abilities. A lesser human.

          EVs are for idiots.

  4. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    Works fine for tens of millions of cars being driven today with them.

  5. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    EVs are fine. We've been using trains and trolleys for decades and they just work. BEVs however suck and that's because current battery technology fricking sucks. Battery chemistry tech has plateaued and until a new way to store energy is invented, personal EVs aren't going to take off. Batteries for small electronic devices are awesome but for personal vehicles it just ain't it chief.

  6. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    I like that they're quiet and fast, but the risk of a lithium fire isn't fricking worth it. The whole pushing EVs thing was an investment scheme anyway, and it seems to be over. Hybrids are good to go, the battery is small and in a spot where damage isn't likely so the possibility of a fire is low. Whereas with EVs the entire bottom is a battery so huge risk of damage which causes the fires, and plug-in hybrid there's a bigger risk too due to the bigger battery. Hybrids are alright, nice little power boost and they run quiet with good fuel efficiency. If you want one, specifically get a Toyota or Lexus. Their batteries don't die, I have a 10 year old Prius that still holds charge well and gets 54mpg. For most hybrids it's recommended to replace the battery every 5-6 years and you'll never recoup the initial cost for the hybrid system. Each time you break even and start saving money, you have to throw thousands into replacing the battery. It literally costs more money. They're only viable with Toyota's indestructible batteries.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      More gas cars catch fire in a day than EVs have caught fire in the last 10 years

  7. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    I agree but hybrids are dope though and you only need a much smaller cheaper battery pack.
    Looks like hydrogen combustion and fuel cell plus biofuels are the future though.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      >hydrogen combustion
      >the future
      Because somehow cars with 2kg of hydrogen storage, for 50 miles of driving range, at a cost of $.50 a mile will make sense.

      Toyota still hasn't delivered a FCEV powertrain with more than 6kg of storage, and the Mirai is still heavier, slower, and less practical than a Model 3. Especially if like most people you don't drive along one of the very few routes that has hydrogen infrastructure.
      Compared to the latest generation or production batteries that could give lighter weight electric cars 400 or 500 miles of range even hydrogen fuel cell electric cars are going to have trouble competing.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      Hydrogen is a fricking meme and morons who bought Mirais only for their local hydrogen stations to be shut down are stuck with literally indrivable cars

  8. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    I wont read through all the repolies in this thread and perhaps there is some similar reply:

    OP is not wrong when saying that.
    the original idea was to built small cars as BEVs.
    I can remember all of the manufacturers came up with drawings and none of them ever were build.
    articels showed up in all the car magazines and all manufacturers had drawings and they didnt look bad
    but then manufacturer found out its better profits when not doing that.
    all of them and when other players emerged, they lobbied them on a large scale and refused to cooperate.
    of course there were certain reservations among customers about buying small vehicles, but the subsidies would also have generated interest in this vehicle class.
    a development that had to be prevented for the sake of profit.
    that is what has happened, that is why there are no green BEVs, why they cant manage 300 miles, why they need a 1500lbs battery and why BEVs now dont make any fricking sense.
    now you cant even find the drawings on google.
    but of course thats just a coincidence, and of course Im a communist.

    *german eng tips fedora*

  9. 2 months ago
    Greased Geese

    >Lithium ion batteries are simply not a good enough technology for cars
    correct
    now put 5.8l pushrod engines back in cars.

  10. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    >not good enough
    >still sell like hotcakes anyway

    I wonder why.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      The Model Y is the best selling car in the world? That proves it, EVs are finished!

  11. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    >EV cannonball record
    >42:52

    >ICE cannonball record
    >25:39

    muh efficiency rite?

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      >1400 miles in 2 days
      >[EVs hardly affect] travel time

      I drove 2150 miles in 34 hours, and that was only because I was playing my fuel tank level too safely and spent 45 minutes sleeping in a parking lot.

      What any of this proves to me, is most human beings don't qualify for my level of human being. You're like rhesus macaques compared to a chimpanzee. you're a salmon and I'm a dolphin.
      You are lesser, you have lesser self control, lesser abilities. A lesser human.

      EVs are for idiots.

      >ICEV engine dies seconds after entering 2 feet of water

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        >a ten year old, now exposed wire passes 1,500 amps of 600v channeling whatever quick path to metal the water lets it take
        >your EV literally explodes

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          >Your 'superior' ICE gets hit in the wrong spot catches fire that spreads everywhere as gasoline pours out... eh pinto, and many others

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            >I move/extend my intake to above the hood and somehow, through the forces of magic can traverse 3+ foot deep standing water

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