Nissan and Honda join forces to avoid being wiped out

Chinese companies are dominating in electric vehicles, forcing some of the biggest automakers in the world to put aside their differences to face the threat.

Two of Japan’s biggest carmakers (and bitter rivals), Nissan and Honda, said Friday that they would work together to develop electric vehicles amid the looming threat of Chinese EV giants such as BYD.

Although the arrangement is unusual for Japan’s second- and third-biggest carmakers, Honda’s president, Toshihiro Mibe, said that the companies need to work together to survive the threat of new industry contenders, according to the Financial Times.

“The rise of emerging players is becoming faster and stronger,” Mibe told the FT. “Companies that cannot respond to the changes will be wiped out.”

Nissan’s president and CEO, Makoto Uchida, added during a Friday joint press conference that the companies were short on time to step up their efforts, according to multiple outlets.

“It is important to prepare for the increasing pace of transformation in mobility in the mid-to-long-term, and it is significant that we have reached this agreement based on a mutual understanding that Honda and Nissan face common challenges,” Uchida said in a statement.

The Japanese carmaker partnership comes after Volkswagen and French car manufacturer Renault also said they may team up to bring an EV to market for budget-strapped consumers. To compete with the low-cost EVs coming out of China, Volkswagen’s CEO Oliver Blume said this week that it would be smart to work with other carmakers to put the costs “on more shoulders” and still make a profit.

It’s not just EVs where China is beating out its Asian neighbor. Earlier this year, China likely overtook Japan as the world’s top auto exporter thanks to a boost from its lower-cost gas-powered vehicles.

>https://fortune.com/2024/03/15/nissan-toyota-china-evs-wiped-out-byd/

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  1. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    So in not marketing speech, we don't wanna spend money on this shit so let's split the cost

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Basically this. Everyone is tired of the EV shit and the constant shilling, especially from the Chinese. Eventually the West and even some Eastern powers will just agree that China is a threat on every level and wipe them out economically by refusing to trade anything with them.

      China is a paper tiger, they'll collapse within months if everyone just ignores them.

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >China is a paper tiger, they'll collapse within months if everyone just ignores them.
        Nah, Chink gov't will keep subsidizing the chink carmakers.

  2. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Not reading all that but I predicted this years ago. No point in the earths greatest manufacturers to all come from one tiny country. Japan will merge Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Subaru, Suzuki, Kawasaki, Yamaha.

  3. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    This is what's going to really going to push the EV revolution. China exporting cheap EVs worldwide. It doesn't matter if the USA or Japan or Britain institute tariffs, Chinese cars will be in Brazil and Mexico and whatever other countries.

    Oil companies cannot ban EVs in every country or slow them down. Chinese EVs are going to reduce oil demand so much we'll likely see a price crash in the next 5 years. The USA oil industry is going to be hit the hardest.

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      People keep saying Chinese cars will be b& in America, and even if that happens it doesn't matter to them. They'll just own the entire market south of the American border
      We're seeing American manufacturers slowly regressing into regional manufacturers that make only pickup trucks for overleveraged Americans

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      chinese evs will not be in brazil and mexico because brazil and mexico don't care about evs.

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Kek, they always claim nonody wants EVs then the market share of EVs climbs to new records every year and when it reaches some huge threshold like 50% or 90% they claim that the place is somehow unique or special and it would never work anywhere else.

        • 4 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          That's because the government gives tax breaks and what not if you buy one. Then the people sell that shit for something they actually want.

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      China can’t expand properly to Brazil and Mexico because their entire advantage is cheap labor.
      The Chinese can’t export cheap labor to South America unless they literally set up slave plantation style car factories with imported Uiygers as the livestock.
      They will do 90% of their supply chain in China then have a symbolic final assembly done in Mexico or wherever.
      That isn’t exactly going to impress the locals, and will likely draw the ire of the US.

      Meanwhile American companies like Tesla will show up and will have way better synergy.
      They will want to build 100% of the supply chain locally.
      Instead of relying on cheap labor Tesla’s strength is leveraging world class manufacturing technologies to stay competitive.
      Much more likely to leave a good impression on the locals.

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Mexican labor is cheaper than Chinese labor at this point

  4. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    lmao what does Honda get out of teaming up with Nissan scrubs?

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Honda knows ev does not make money for them and wants an ev they can put out really cheap while still building hybrids they actually make money on. Nissan has the leaf and the hobda gm partnership fell through.

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Nissan also has the Ariya, which, while not a blowout success, moved more vehicles in Europe alone than Honda did with the e globally, during its entire lifespan.

  5. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Nissan Sakura is everything Honda should have been doing in the electric car market. Take a Nissan electric powertrain with the power backup functionality and add a Honda-engineered range-extender generator.
    They would need to put it into a lightweight and desirable package, and it might not fit the Kei footprint currently, but just consider what it would be.

    A vehicle that has 30 or 40 miles of daily electric range, plus a day or more of battery backup power for a hour, that can also drive on gasoline, and act as a emergency backup generator?
    Sell it world wide for an affordable price tag that undercuts the new Prius and they would have a massive success.

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      if this isn't exactly what they do, I will eat my hat

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        You would have thought it would be obvious to Japanese car makers they would actually need to commit to volume production of the PHEVs they have been mostly talking about for a decade, and that series-hybrid style powertrain designs would be the obvious path towards that but they haven't done it.

        I'd keep that hat on standby.

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      if this isn't exactly what they do, I will eat my hat

      You would have thought it would be obvious to Japanese car makers they would actually need to commit to volume production of the PHEVs they have been mostly talking about for a decade, and that series-hybrid style powertrain designs would be the obvious path towards that but they haven't done it.

      I'd keep that hat on standby.

      You're describing a smaller, shittier Toyota Prius with features most people don't want or need.
      What I had been saying for a long time now is hybrids should have been forced through instead of being called things like "a stop gap" or "half measure."

      Recall if you will, Toyota explaining how for the same resources as 10 EVs they could produce 300 PHEVs

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >for the same resources as 10 EVs they could produce 300 PHEVs
        That's nice and all, but shit like the Prius Prime and RAV4 Prime have waiting lists that would make a 911 GT3 buyer blush. Meanwhile Tesla churning out Model 3s and Ys in pickup truck numbers

        • 4 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          Irrelevant to the necessities of customer scale and global resource use.

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            I'd say the ability for the end consumer to buy a car is pretty fricking relevant

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            I'm sorry are you trying to agree with me or what the frick is going on.

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >Recall if you will, Toyota explaining how for the same resources as 10 EVs they could produce 300 PHEVs
        That was the theory, and it might have seemed sound before 2017, but the reality was that Tesla was able to scale BEVs with batteries 3x the size of a PHEV's battery pack and sold more than a million annually while it took Toyota until 2023 to even sell one hundred thousand PHEVs in a single year.
        Not for lack of demand, but because the more limited scale up meant they didn't get the same benefits of volume battery production that Tesla achieved.

        >with features most people don't want or need.
        I wouldn't be sure about that. The thing that did the most to sell the F-150 Lightning? The home power backup feature they showed in the commercial.
        It is one of the big selling points of the Sakura, and part of the reason for its success in Japan, but short-range Kei cars aren't a good global product.

        The thing about being a smaller, somewhat crappier Prius Prime at a lower price point, is that there has not been a smaller cheaper (mostly) electric car capable of doing 100% of an owners driving.
        Volt in larger and launched at over 30k, Prius Prime is often priced up against the Model 3, Bolt was cheaper and smaller but lacked a good range-extending solution, same deal with the Leaf.
        A Leaf / Civic / Golf sized car with a range extender and ~50 miles of daily electric range at $25k seems possible.

        Add in a 2 way home power hookup at less than 1/3 the cost of a separate home generator and that starts to look like a really good deal to a lot of families as a second car.

        • 4 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          man throw away your whole post.

          the comparison Toyota made is about resource consumption, not production levels.
          EVs are extremely wasteful, get the frick over it

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Resource consumption of a PHEV like a Prius Prime vs a BEV like a the base LFP Model 3 likely still quickly comes out in favor of the Model 3. A PHEV has about 100kg of batteries and used as intended uses about 200kg of fuel a year. That adds up pretty quickly when you consider the Model 3 has 300kg of batteries for 60kWh that will likely far outlast the car, and many PHEVs drive more on gas than the simplistic 20% estimate.

            Of course I'm not opposed to PHEVs, and am in here advocating for Honda and Nissan to get serious about making them affordable because they have advantages in ease of adoption and they're still far better than a gasoline dependent car that burns through 1600kg of fuel every year. That is just about the mass of a RWD Model 3 up in smoke every year.

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            whelp you're braindead and don't even know it

            cool thanks

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >Recall if you will, Toyota explaining how for the same resources as 10 EVs they could produce 300 PHEVs

        Which was "Sneed & Feed" tier copium. Ultimately, lithium is irrelevant. If it's too expensive, use less (i.e. a different type of Li-based battery). If it's still too expensive, use a different chemistry (ex. Na-based). The rest of the car isn't made out of recycled bamboo (not even the bugpeople have managed that feat), so it will still weigh quite a bit on the BoM, and those costs are inelastic. You can't *not* put a coolant/oil/fuel pump in your IC engine. You can put shitty plastic componentry that self-destructs after 35k miles, but there's a ground floor limit to penny-pinching (especially if one of your brand marketing points is reliability).
        In the case of muskmobiles, at least, the basic blueprint has been cost-optimized to "cheap Aliexpress combination phone charger/housefire igniter" levels, so they're cheap to build (and absolutely atrocious to repare).

        The biggest issue affecting Japanese automakers, in particular, is that their production streams are autistically tuned with a particular set of assumptions as starting point, and the current EV component cost distribution badly fricks with that. Plus, they straight-up don't *want* to buy shit from Chinese/Koreans, especially not a high-value component like a high-capacity traction battery, yet those 'people' produce the cheapest high-cap batteries on the market.

        >t. Verification not required.

        • 4 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          you're fricking reettaarrrddddeeed dude, cant grasp basic concepts fully explained

          helpless little sheep. Bahhhhh. Bah bah. There I spoke your language, you functionless non-human.

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Dude, bro, homie, what the actual frick. You've either confused me with another anon, or you're having a mental breakdown.

  6. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >chink evs are a threat to autoakers
    I dont get it, those are guaranteed time bombs, I never seen anyone drive a chink brand ever.
    combustion engines are still heavily favored by people.
    How

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      In the west they are often re-badged to something more familiar as a captive import by a western brand like Volvo, but China has also taken over some familiar brands like Lotus, and there are also some new brands people won't think of as Chinese like Polestar.

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >Polestar.
        Pornstar.
        Pole dancing.
        Who the frick thought that would be a good name for a company?
        Just like those frickin' Riveria trucks that I see. Frick those.
        Also, KN.

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      This. They are gonna die faster than Fiat's and blow up bigger than Tesla's

  7. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    So... both Honda and NIssan are too stupid to reach the same conclusion Toyota has: that EVs are shit.

    Even now the bluest of blue pilled media outlets are admitted there's hardly any demand for EVs. Why any automaker would dive into that shit is mind boggling.

    >hmmm lets waste billions on designing horse shit cars and setting up tooling at factories to make some shit nobody wants and the world doesn't even actually have enough Li for. That will make us successful in the future I'm sure!

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >there's hardly any demand for EVs
      Meanwhile in reality

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Toyota would sell more RAV4s if the government paid people $7000 to buy them.

        • 4 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          RAV4 Prime is in fact eligible for the credit, but remember it is your own money coming back so you have to be paying at least that much.
          The credits make sense, every car that doesn't need to burn gas for every mile driven is thousands of dollars saved in subsidies every single year.

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >but remember it is your own money coming back so you have to be paying at least that much.
            It's a $7000 tax credit. It's not your own money coming back. It's paying $7000 less in taxes. If you pay $7000 in taxes, which you should unless you are making sub 50k and you are a single mother eligible for earned income tax credit, you will have $7000 more in your pocket.

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >It's not your own money coming back. It's paying $7000 less in taxes.
            You are really stretching there. Who cares if it is not your exact dollar being returned? It is reducing your tax burden so you get a larger refund of the money you paid in.
            It is a common right-wing policy to offer this kind of conditional reduction in an individuals tax burden if they do something beneficial to the Government.
            It is paying your taxes in a different way.

            [...]
            RAV4 Prime isn't eligible for the EV handout.

            There is no 'handout', and it does qualify, although there may be conditions on that.

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >There is no 'handout', and it does qualify, although there may be conditions on that.
            Only vehicles assembled in NA qualify. RAV4 primes are built in Japan.

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Oh boy it's the shill moron who never stops saying gas is subsidied at eight hundred and fourteen dollars per mile.

            You haven't killed yourself yet and it is concerning to me, because I don't want to have to do it for you.

        • 4 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          moron bro that's global, and Toyota's Prime hybrids are eligible for these incentives

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            RAV4 Prime is in fact eligible for the credit, but remember it is your own money coming back so you have to be paying at least that much.
            The credits make sense, every car that doesn't need to burn gas for every mile driven is thousands of dollars saved in subsidies every single year.

            RAV4 Prime isn't eligible for the EV handout.

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Which handout? Where?

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >2023
        year is now 2023+1 anon

        • 4 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          2024 hasn't had 365 days yet

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >same conclusion Toyota has: that EVs are shit.
      What are you talking about? Toyota still plans in the future to sell nothing but EVs.
      The only remaining debate is over how to handle extending the range of an EV.

      Whether that is high capacity batteries, hydrogen fuel cells, or an internal combustion range-extender generator.
      FCEVs and PHEVs are both still EVs even if they are not pure BEVs.

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >So... both Honda and NIssan are too stupid to reach the same conclusion Toyota has: that EVs are shit.
      Toyota doesn't think that EVs are going to be that popular in the future and pushed off investing in capacity to build them, but they know they might be forced to sell only EVs in 10 years and so they've put tons of money into R&D and are now investing billions in factories. Honda has to figure out a way to thread the needle on this so they don't go bankrupt or get bought out by another manufacturer.

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >Toyota doesn't think that EVs are going to be that popular in the future
        This is not a case of electric vs internal combustion, this is competition between different types of EV.
        New PHEVs and FCEVs are EVs and allowed under every post 2035 regulatory structure. They are what Toyota is betting on.

        Toyota's problem is so far they haven't made a strong case for their position. Their Prime cars are too expensive with limited availability, and Mirai is unimpressive without the hydrogen infrastructure investment to support it.
        Honda + Nissan with a cheap PHEV not treated as a premium product and produced in volume may make a better case.

  8. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    meanwhile chad toyota is callling battery evs a fad

  9. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    can someone give me a qrd on byd, why are there a gajillion threads abt them all of a sudden

  10. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    car manufacturers spent billions trying to make the ICE better, now all you need is a battery and an electric motor

  11. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    How is this news?
    >Toyota + Subaru
    >Ford + Mazda
    >Ford + Yamaha
    >GM + Honda
    >GM + Toyota
    Competing automakers have been doing joint ventures since the creation of the automobile.

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Chrysler + anyone that wants them as a cheap prostitute.

  12. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Nissan can’t do anything on their own anymore, can they?
    First Renault had to save them, now Honda is going to have to do it.

  13. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    wait a minute so youre telling me chinese government subsidized metal coffins are cheap?! and the morons of modern society are buying them in droves because theyre cheap not because theyre good?! gee wizz now I cant wait to waste my hard earned money on one!

  14. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Everyone I talk to doesnt want a pos EV. It's a failed experiment. ICE is here to stay and my Chevron stock is going to make me millions

  15. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    The thing about competition is if you take a nap during the first leg of it, you're pretty much never gonna be able to win.

    2 guys behind everyone else teaming up will still be behind everyone else. They are like 5 years behind the germans/americans/koreans who are 5 years behind the chinese. Japan will never be able to compete with China on the global market.

  16. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Can buy GM Ultima platform

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