>wet bet driven oil pump

>wet bet driven oil pump
what compels automotive engineering leadership to toss aside proven, reliable solutions and replace them with mentally moronic shit like this?

>muh bean counter cost savings
i really doubt there are any significant savings when you consider the R&D and reliability testing costs they undoubtedly wasted on proving that this moronic abomination has the potential to work. oh, and the inevitable warranty work and legal expenses associated with regulators investigating the TOTALLY UNEXPECTED oil pump belt failures on 1.0 liter ecoboost engines.

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  1. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    what the frick is a 'wet bet driven oil pump'

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      typo, wet BELT driven oil pump. ford ecoboost 1.0 liter, 2.7 liter, and the v8 coyote 2021+ year now have oil pumps that are belt driven. the belts are submerged in oil and apparently have a problem where the tensioners slowly shear away the belt. the sheared belt material, because it's submerged in oil, is then sucked up and blocks the oil pump inlet. assuming, of course, the belt doesn't outright catastrophically fail.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        you sound like an idiot.

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          ???

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            you look at a problem in hindsight and can't imagine why someone couldn't predict it happening beforehand. this is what idiots do, just so you know. also you get mad at people developing complex systems calling them mentally moronic when they're not perfect and you can't even proofread your posts. this is also something idiots do.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            you are a literal moron who struggles with first order consequences, let alone second or third order consequences like

            >oil pump doesn't need timing so it's OK if the belt gets slippery and skips a tooth
            >but what happens to a belt that repeatedly skips teeth?
            Engineerds have been unable to contemplate second-order consequences for decades

            mentions. if i had to guess, you are a manual laborer or a minority.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >also you get mad at people developing complex systems calling them mentally moronic when they're not perfect
            sorry but i'm not a fan of kraut autism

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        Only the 1.0 models that have balance shafts, for the automatic troony cars, have the tensioners so the recent recall for these failure prone parts only cover those models so equipped.
        Us stick guys are getting the shaft regarding these broken belts.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        can you retrofit the gerotor crank driven pump on the new coyotes?

  2. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    Lol, are the camshafts chain driven? And to replace the oil pump belt, you have to remove the timing chain first?

    Well, the short ansver to your question is planned obsolescence

  3. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    >oil pump doesn't need timing so it's OK if the belt gets slippery and skips a tooth
    >but what happens to a belt that repeatedly skips teeth?
    Engineerds have been unable to contemplate second-order consequences for decades

  4. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    You might be surprised by what social and power dynamics can do to a project.
    Maybe the engineers had doubts. Maybe some even spoke aloud about them. But in the end, kissing the MBA's ass took priority. Maybe no one just felt strongly enough about the possible issues to risk their career at the company.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      What happened to the engineer that wasn't willing to sign off on Oceangate's carbon fiber submersible

  5. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    the kevlar belt is supposed to be oil resistant. supposedly if you change the oil on time and use the correct oil they will last. people who bought these 1.0L eco boost cars were not the kind to do maintenance on time. when people pull the belt off of these engines that failed because of other reasons than the belt, they crush the belt smaller than the smallest pulley in the system that it runs and then it shows the cracks because it's never been pinched that small.
    is the wet belt a good system? absolutely not. there's no reason that a chain couldn't have been used, or even better, an oil pump driven straight off of the crankshaft. The belt will not last forever and should be changed every 100K like a normal timing belt. The fact that it's buried behind a chain makes the replacement process more annoying.
    It's just autistic engineers that designed the engine and forgot about the oil pump, and then said "okay we'll just put it down here since we forgot about it, and we don't have the budget or time to redo the plans, and we'll use this shitty belt to keep the cost down since we already submitted the final price to the bean counters".

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      Wonder how that belt reacts to any extra substances in the oil. Wouldn't be surprised if a little bit of antifreeze, fuel and whatever ended up in there over time.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      >the kevlar belt is supposed to be oil resistant. supposedly if you change the oil on time and use the correct oil they will last. people who bought these 1.0L eco boost cars were not the kind to do maintenance on time. when people pull the belt off of these engines that failed because of other reasons than the belt, they crush the belt smaller than the smallest pulley in the system that it runs and then it shows the cracks because it's never been pinched that small.

      again, this is one of these scenarios where dumb Black person engineers contrive a mentally moronic solution, alpha test it in some limited capacity, and then conclude that it's JUST AS GOOD, IF NOT BETTER than chain driven oil pumps because the n=100 statistical samples said so.

      anyone with the slightest bit of common sense will immediately identify it as being thoroughly moronic and prone to failure.

      the inherently flawed and moronic design gets the approval for production. the n=100 alpha test turns into tens or hundreds of thousands of consumers beta testing this moronic design, and the expected failure modes come to fruition. the perceived cost savings of belt vs chain are negated by forced warranty work, and then totally obliterated by the inevitable mass recall or class action lawsuits.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        [...]
        and ford in particular has been brutally assfricked with warranty costs, $5 billion in 2023 alone. do they EVER learn?

        testing a system in-house for years and years to see how things will perform isn't doable. manufacturers rely on offloading their beta testing to customers to help them make decisions in the future. this is nothing new, see the old olds diesel engines that blew head gaskets all day because of the shit head design. that's just the reality of the industry. things change too quickly to ever keep a new system in testing for more than a year or two.
        however the problem is that Ford doesn't fricking learn and they're still using these shitty wet-belts and Chrysler is doing it too in the EcoDiesel now. we already had oil pumps figured out but for some reason they needed to reinvent it. Crank driven oil pumps worked just fine and almost never failed.
        It's all about the rat race of innovation and redesigning. The investors love it. They keep pushing for it. So, instead of just sticking to the reliable techniques we figured out decades ago, we've gotta go out and try something new so that the investors are happy.

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          reading posts like these is funny when you hear spergs rant against modifications because "oem knows best, you can't do better than oem," when oem manufacturers are constantly making small to large changes to their products with every model year. oem does not know best, or they'd have no reason to change anything

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            the oems have duct tape over their mouths and their hands tied behind their backs by the EPA, CAFE, NHTSA, their investors, and their financial department. There was a time when they actually tried to make good, reliable, rebuildable engines and good vehicles at an affordable price. of course, they weren't without their hiccups, but they typically had good intent. the industry was still in early development and the regulators weren't going full BDSM quite yet.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >oem does not know best, or they'd have no reason to change anything
            Some of those changes might just be because of supply chain issues and optimizations.
            Chinashit companies collapse all the time. Fortunately, by the time one of them is selling a successful product, 3 other companies next door are probably setting up production lines for a blatant copy.
            Nobody will notice if the water pump comes from Ding Dong Precision Mechanics or Bang Bong Mechanics Precision, at least until the replacements start cracking due to being made of toy-tier plastic (that can't even be used for toys because of contaminants).

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      >the kevlar belt is supposed to be oil resistant. supposedly if you change the oil on time and use the correct oil they will last. people who bought these 1.0L eco boost cars were not the kind to do maintenance on time. when people pull the belt off of these engines that failed because of other reasons than the belt, they crush the belt smaller than the smallest pulley in the system that it runs and then it shows the cracks because it's never been pinched that small.

      again, this is one of these scenarios where dumb Black person engineers contrive a mentally moronic solution, alpha test it in some limited capacity, and then conclude that it's JUST AS GOOD, IF NOT BETTER than chain driven oil pumps because the n=100 statistical samples said so.

      anyone with the slightest bit of common sense will immediately identify it as being thoroughly moronic and prone to failure.

      the inherently flawed and moronic design gets the approval for production. the n=100 alpha test turns into tens or hundreds of thousands of consumers beta testing this moronic design, and the expected failure modes come to fruition. the perceived cost savings of belt vs chain are negated by forced warranty work, and then totally obliterated by the inevitable mass recall or class action lawsuits.

      and ford in particular has been brutally assfricked with warranty costs, $5 billion in 2023 alone. do they EVER learn?

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      >the kevlar belt is supposed to be oil resistant. supposedly if you change the oil on time and use the correct oil they will last. people who bought these 1.0L eco boost cars were not the kind to do maintenance on time. when people pull the belt off of these engines that failed because of other reasons than the belt, they crush the belt smaller than the smallest pulley in the system that it runs and then it shows the cracks because it's never been pinched that small.

      again, this is one of these scenarios where dumb Black person engineers contrive a mentally moronic solution, alpha test it in some limited capacity, and then conclude that it's JUST AS GOOD, IF NOT BETTER than chain driven oil pumps because the n=100 statistical samples said so.

      anyone with the slightest bit of common sense will immediately identify it as being thoroughly moronic and prone to failure.

      the inherently flawed and moronic design gets the approval for production. the n=100 alpha test turns into tens or hundreds of thousands of consumers beta testing this moronic design, and the expected failure modes come to fruition. the perceived cost savings of belt vs chain are negated by forced warranty work, and then totally obliterated by the inevitable mass recall or class action lawsuits.

      [...]
      testing a system in-house for years and years to see how things will perform isn't doable. manufacturers rely on offloading their beta testing to customers to help them make decisions in the future. this is nothing new, see the old olds diesel engines that blew head gaskets all day because of the shit head design. that's just the reality of the industry. things change too quickly to ever keep a new system in testing for more than a year or two.
      however the problem is that Ford doesn't fricking learn and they're still using these shitty wet-belts and Chrysler is doing it too in the EcoDiesel now. we already had oil pumps figured out but for some reason they needed to reinvent it. Crank driven oil pumps worked just fine and almost never failed.
      It's all about the rat race of innovation and redesigning. The investors love it. They keep pushing for it. So, instead of just sticking to the reliable techniques we figured out decades ago, we've gotta go out and try something new so that the investors are happy.

      https://i.imgur.com/weqPvMX.jpg

      the oems have duct tape over their mouths and their hands tied behind their backs by the EPA, CAFE, NHTSA, their investors, and their financial department. There was a time when they actually tried to make good, reliable, rebuildable engines and good vehicles at an affordable price. of course, they weren't without their hiccups, but they typically had good intent. the industry was still in early development and the regulators weren't going full BDSM quite yet.

      >oem does not know best, or they'd have no reason to change anything
      Some of those changes might just be because of supply chain issues and optimizations.
      Chinashit companies collapse all the time. Fortunately, by the time one of them is selling a successful product, 3 other companies next door are probably setting up production lines for a blatant copy.
      Nobody will notice if the water pump comes from Ding Dong Precision Mechanics or Bang Bong Mechanics Precision, at least until the replacements start cracking due to being made of toy-tier plastic (that can't even be used for toys because of contaminants).

      >What's is planned obsolescence
      It nothing new. It's the the exact same thinking behind any timing belt/chain, designed to either force the customer into a trade in after 10 years or eat a 5k repair bill.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        timing belt kits are $100 for the average car
        chains are more expensive and involved, especially where the chain is on the transmission side

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          >buh headgasket is only $40!
          ok??? timing belt job is like $1500

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          My engine basically has to be removed from the car and dismantled to replace the timing belt and oil pump belt.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            that's not an inherent flaw of using a belt driven design, my Acura/honda J32A3 uses a timing belt too, except relatively easy to replace. The only pain is getting that

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          Praytell, show me one modern car being produced with a timing belt in 2024.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Anything with the 1.0 ecoboost 3 banger has a wet timing belt, and most of the other sub-2L current Ford 4 cylinders have a dry timing belt. Honda/Acura V6s also all still have timing belts. This is not an exhaustive list, just what I remembered off the top of my head.

  6. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    The funny part is there's teeth for a timing chain right there

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